Minor energy shield rebalance

[NoElkaTheGod]

About the PR

Energy shield is now slightly worse against lasers, but slightly more durable against bullets.
Exact numbers:

• Reflect chance (only reflects energy weapons) 95% -> 80%
• Shield passive pierce resist 15% -> 30%
• Shield active pierce resist 50% -> 60%

Why / Balance

Energy shield, being an 8 TC purchase, makes you basicaly immune to any laser weapons. If the captain will try to kill you with their laser pistol, you can just turn on your shield and win by doing nothing. 80% chаnce is still very strong, but at least it doesn't make you invincible.
On the other hand, being an 8 TC purchase, eshield is hillariously bad against everything else. WT550 can destroy an active shield in mere 3 seconds, which is kinda bad for a shield, which disallows you to use anything except for pistols and/or esword.
This PR makes eshield more of an all-round item, while keeping heavy emphasis on it being mostly an anti-laser option.

Technical details

YAML changes.

Media

Nah.

Requirements

• I have read and am following the Pull Request and Changelog Guidelines.
• I have added media to this PR or it does not require an ingame showcase.

Changelog
🆑

• tweak: Energy shields are now slightly more durable, but have less reflect chance.

[K-Dynamic]

Have you tested the amount of shots it would take to down someone with an eshield

Keep in mind a reflect also prevents damage to the eshield

[thebadman4662]

This rebalance goes against the point of eshield. Pierce(gunshots) and especially melee damage is supposed to be counter to them while they are supposed to give you huge boons against energy weapons. If nukie is going to sacrifice one hand(WHICH IS HUGE DEAL) it should at least make them very resilient to lasers.

Also weren't eshields nerfed for non-energy combat exactly because of how busted they were on top of getting removed from traitors?

[K-Dynamic]

This rebalance goes against the point of eshield. Pierce(gunshots) and especially melee damage is supposed to be counter to them while they are supposed to give you huge boons against energy weapons. If nukie is going to sacrifice one hand(WHICH IS HUGE DEAL) it should at least make them very resilient to lasers.

It doesn't just make them resilient to lasers, it straight up denies most hits and sometimes hits the shooter. A nukie with an eshield and esword is a boon for the rest of their gun-toting teammates.

[BramvanZijp]

The fact that the shield is weak to ballistic shots is part of its balance. You cannot touch the user with laser based weapons, but with ballistic weapons, especially shotguns and SMGs, you can do major damage to the shield and break it rather quickly, after which they become fully vulnerable to lasers again. So I agree this PR takes the item in the wrong direction.

[thebadman4662]

This rebalance goes against the point of eshield. Pierce(gunshots) and especially melee damage is supposed to be counter to them while they are supposed to give you huge boons against energy weapons. If nukie is going to sacrifice one hand(WHICH IS HUGE DEAL) it should at least make them very resilient to lasers.

It doesn't just make them resilient to lasers, it straight up denies most hits and sometimes hits the shooter. A nukie with an eshield and esword is a boon for the rest of their gun-toting teammates.

So they are not shooting you or they are severely limited unless captain decided its time to gift nukies lasgun... Though SO combo can be nice for peek combat, ill give you that, Still there are only so many eshields to use before they do more harm than good to nukies.

The fact that the shield is weak to ballistic shots is part of its balance. You cannot touch the user with laser based weapons, but with ballistic weapons, especially shotguns and SMGs, you can do major damage to the shield and break it rather quickly, after which they become fully vulnerable to lasers again. So I agree this PR takes the item in the wrong direction.

I feel we are about to summon ARMOK so they can tell everyone how 1-2 tiders with toolboxes is all you need to robust such shield and maybe nukie themselves due to how vulnerable they are to blunt damage.

[NoElkaTheGod]

Keep in mind a reflect also prevents damage to the eshield

I know, that's why i reduced the reflect chance. Before the change it was quite literally immune to lasers.

Have you tested the amount of shots it would take to down someone with an eshield

Here's some tests with ballistic weapons for you:

• WT550, Lecter (same results): 18 shots to break the shield, 23 to kill with shield, 14 to kill wothout shield.
• Enforcer: 5 point-blank shots to break the shield, 7 to kill with shield, 4 to kill without shield.

Almost double the amount of shots, but keep in mind, that you can heal between fights, and eshield can't.
And here's some energy weapons:

• Laser cannon: ~50 shots to break shield, ~52 to kill with shield, 8 to kill without shield.
• HoS energy shotgun: ~27 point-blank shots to break shield, ~28 to kill with shield, 4 to kill without shield. (Wide barrage mode).
• Laser rifle: i feel like i will fall asleep before the shield will break, and poor Urist had already suffered enough.

Still pretty big numbers, but not totally impossible to break with some clever tactics.
Numbers with energy weapons may vary, because reflect is random.
Target was wearing full blood-red hardsuit in all tests.

[BramvanZijp]

Keep in mind a reflect also prevents damage to the eshield

I know, that's why i reduced the reflect chance. Before the change it was quite literally immune to lasers.

Have you tested the amount of shots it would take to down someone with an eshield

Here's some tests with ballistic weapons for you:

• WT550, Lecter (same results): 18 shots to break the shield, 23 to kill with shield, 14 to kill wothout shield.
• Enforcer: 5 point-blank shots to break the shield, 7 to kill with shield, 4 to kill without shield.

Almost double the amount of shots, but keep in mind, that you can heal between fights, and eshield can't. And here's some energy weapons:

• Laser cannon: ~50 shots to break shield, ~52 to kill with shield, 8 to kill without shield.
• HoS energy shotgun: ~27 point-blank shots to break shield, ~28 to kill with shield, 4 to kill without shield. (Wide barrage mode).
• Laser rifle: i feel like i will fall asleep before the shield will break, and poor Urist had already suffered enough.

Still pretty big numbers, but not totally impossible to break with some clever tactics. Numbers with energy weapons may vary, because reflect is random. Target was wearing full blood-red hardsuit in all tests.

I feel like again, it SHOULD be near-immune to lasers untill broken with ballistics, to which it should be quite vulnerable. Thats what makes the item special.

[NoElkaTheGod]

This rebalance goes against the point of eshield. Pierce(gunshots) and especially melee damage is supposed to be counter to them while they are supposed to give you huge boons against energy weapons. If nukie is going to sacrifice one hand(WHICH IS HUGE DEAL) it should at least make them very resilient to lasers.

It still makes you very tanky agains lasers. So tanky in fact, that the shooter will die before the shield does (and maybe even some surrounding walls).
Blunt and sharp resistances (the types that most melee weapons have) were not changed at all, so it's still pretty bad in melee.
However, the eshield being as bad as it was against gunshots didn't really make much sense to me. Ballistic weapons are already much stronger than lasers in terms of damage. It takes 2-3 seconds to down a nukie with a gun, compared to 8 seconds from a laser rifle.

[NoElkaTheGod]

I feel like again, it SHOULD be near-immune to lasers untill broken with ballistics, to which it should be quite vulnerable. Thats what makes the item special.

Lasers are already pretty useless without reinforced glass barricades, and an eshield would make those barricades absolutely useless. Imagine wasting 20 minutes building fortifications for laser fire, only to find out that half of the nukie team doesn't give a crap about it, because eshields make them immune to lasers.

[NoElkaTheGod]

The point is: if you have an eshield, and you see a secoff with a laser rifle, you can tank it with very minor damage. However, if there's a glass hallway with 4 laser cannons at the end, you'd better to look for a way around, which (in my opinion) is better than just mindlessly tanking your way through enemy fortifications.
Either break the fortifications with gunfire (easy but expensive), search for a weak spot like unsealed maints door (slower but cheaper), or find a way to force the crew out of their fortifications, for example by sabotaging station's powernet (even slower and requires some thinking, but may give you a bigger advantage).

[keronshb]

Here's the last PR - #26204

My feelings are still the same. If there absolutely has to be a balance, then change the Energy Shield TC to 16, make reflect chance 100%, leave everything else the same.

IIRC Energy Shield should also be nukie only

[NoElkaTheGod]

My feelings are still the same. If there absolutely has to be a balance, then change the Energy Shield TC to 16, make reflect chance 100%, leave everything else the same.

No item in the game should give 100% immunity to something, and 95% is pretty damn close. If you want to survive longer (and i mean much longer, even with this PR) against lasers - buy eshield. If you see heavy fortifications with extensive use of laser weapons - find a way to break those fortifications. What's the point of building fortificatoins, if hey're rendered entirely useless by one item?

[thebadman4662]

My feelings are still the same. If there absolutely has to be a balance, then change the Energy Shield TC to 16, make reflect chance 100%, leave everything else the same.

No item in the game should give 100% immunity to something, and 95% is pretty damn close. If you want to survive longer (and i mean much longer, even with this PR) against lasers - buy eshield. If you see heavy fortifications with extensive use of laser weapons - find a way to break those fortifications. What's the point of building fortificatoins, if hey're rendered entirely useless by one item?

So, EVA giving 100% immunity to pressure, CE hardsuit 100% rad immunity, cryo pods 100% cold immunity, elite black/atmos 100% fire immunity getting nerfed soon? Of course some items should give 100% or near 100% immunities, they simply should not be jacks of all trades while at it.

[NoElkaTheGod]

No item in the game should give 100% immunity to something, and 95% is pretty damn close. If you want to survive longer (and i mean much longer, even with this PR) against lasers - buy eshield. If you see heavy fortifications with extensive use of laser weapons - find a way to break those fortifications. What's the point of building fortificatoins, if hey're rendered entirely useless by one item?

So, EVA giving 100% immunity to pressure, CE hardsuit 100% rad immunity, cryo pods 100% cold immunity, elite black/atmos 100% fire immunity getting nerfed soon? Of course some items should give 100% or near 100% immunities, they simply should not be jacks of all trades while at it.

Alright, my bad, let me make this clear. I meant 100% immunity to any type of weapons. Technicaly CE hardsuit does give 100% immunity agains xray guns, but those are very rarely used, and certainly not against CE. Flamethrowers are not commonly used against one target, and fire immune hardsuits are rare (and flamethrowers are pretty damn strong anyways). And atmosphere is a major game mechanic, so there obviously should be a way to fight it.

[K-Dynamic]

So, EVA giving 100% immunity to pressure, CE hardsuit 100% rad immunity, cryo pods 100% cold immunity, elite black/atmos 100% fire immunity getting nerfed soon? Of course some items should give 100% or near 100% immunities, they simply should not be jacks of all trades while at it.

Totally, I will begin coding 100% pierce resist armour and see how agreeable that is.

The problem with the e-shield in its current form is that it's a brainless purchase to straight deny half of NT weaponry and the arsenal tree, making any effort into getting unique laser weapons a waste of mats and spesos.

For all the arguments against losing a hand, an e-shield with a gun would be downright broken, and it's viable to pair with an e-sword that deflect some bullets.

[thebadman4662]

Totally, I will begin coding 100% pierce resist armour and see how agreeable that is.

Skeletons already have 100% damage immunity to being punched and slashed by lizards so you could simply boost their pierce damage resist(which somehow is weaker than both slash and blunt... and its intended!

[keronshb]

My feelings are still the same. If there absolutely has to be a balance, then change the Energy Shield TC to 16, make reflect chance 100%, leave everything else the same.

No item in the game should give 100% immunity to something, and 95% is pretty damn close. If you want to survive longer (and i mean much longer, even with this PR) against lasers - buy eshield. If you see heavy fortifications with extensive use of laser weapons - find a way to break those fortifications. What's the point of building fortificatoins, if hey're rendered entirely useless by one item?

Energy shield, as intended, is meant to be 100% reflect chance for laser.
Someone has an energy shield? Use ballistics or melee.

The proper balance change was requested. Raise the TC, and if it isn't already make it nukies only, otherwise this PR is up for being closed.

Deeper explanation -
Crew can easily set up hallways with windows where they can pepper Nukies with laser guns. E Shield forces them to engage or allows someone to "tank" those shots.

AI could also bolt windowed airlocks to allow crew a free "shoot fish in barrel", having an energy shield again protects against that.

Removing 100% reflect chance from the energy shield and buffing the gun armor it has just makes those strategies significantly better.

[NoElkaTheGod]

Deeper explanation - Crew can easily set up hallways with windows where they can pepper Nukies with laser guns. E Shield forces them to engage or allows someone to "tank" those shots.

AI could also bolt windowed airlocks to allow crew a free "shoot fish in barrel", having an energy shield again protects against that.

Removing 100% reflect chance from the energy shield and buffing the gun armor it has just makes those strategies significantly better.

Crew had set up a hallway with windows? You can:

• Try to find a hallway without windows.
• Break the windows with explosives and/or gunfire.
• Get into maints and attack the crew from behind (if maint doors are bolted/welded, either unbolt/unweld them, or just break with eswords).
• Sabotage the powernet, so that crew can't recharge their lasers.
• Or, you know, just mindlessly tank all the shots, because eshield makes you fucking invincible.

Yes, nerfing the eshield will make glass hallway better. But in it's current state glass hallways are literally useless.

[thebadman4662]

Yes, nerfing the eshield will make glass hallway better. But in it's current state glass hallways are literally useless.

False, they are good griefing tool to kill fellow crew.

[keronshb]

Since requested changes were not applied, adding my 1/2 for closing.
Waiting for another maintainer or PM to close or override.

[slarticodefast]

Hey, we brought this up for internal discussion among the maintainers and decided to close this PR for the following reasons:

• It is a good thing to have items with a specialized purpose because it enables having differerent builds for nukie loadouts, for example a melee/tank build
• We feel like the balance for this item is in a good place currently as it forces the crew to engage in an environment where the nukies can fight. While building glass barricades and using them in combination with laser weapons should be a valid strategy against nukies, it should not be too powerful without ways to counter it either. The energy shield is an insurance for the nukies against this, and it comes at a price in the form of TC.
• From the other side of the balance the energy shield does not make the user completely immune either. If the crew adapts to it and changes their strategy, they can easily defeat it.

We would like to thank you for contributing and hope you continue to do so in the future!